Questioner: If we may I should like to continue from where we left off yesterday. You were saying that the mind is the maker of the envelope around itself, and that this envelope is the mind. I really don’t understand this. Intellectually I can agree, but the nature of perception eludes me. I should like very much to understand it – not verbally but actually feel it – so that there is no conflict in my life.
Krishnamurti: There is the space between what the mind calls the envelope which it has made, and itself. There is the space between the ideal and the action. In these different fragmentations of space between the observer and the observed, or between different things it observes, is all conflict and struggle, and all the problems of life. There is the separation between this envelope around me and the envelope around another. In that space is all our existence, all our relationship and battle.
Questioner: When you talk of the division between the observer and the observed do you mean these fragmentations of space in our thinking and in our daily actions?
Krishnamurti What is this space? There is space between you and your envelope, the space between him and his envelope, and there is the space between the two envelopes. These spaces all appear to the observer. What are these spaces made of? How do they come into being? What is the quality and the nature of these divided spaces? If we could remove these fragmentary spaces what would happen?
Questioner: There would then be true contact on all levels of one’s being.
Krishnamurti: Is that all?
Questioner: There would be no more conflict, for all conflict is relationship across these spaces.
Krishnamurti: Is that all? When this space actually disappears – not verbally or intellectually – but actually disappears – there is complete harmony, unity, between you and him, between you and another. In this harmony you and he cease and there is only this vast space which can never be broken up. The small structure of the mind comes to an end, for the mind is fragmentation.
Questioner: I really can’t understand this at all, though I have a deep feeling within me that it is so. I can see that when there is love this actually takes place, but I don’t know that love. It’s not with me all the time. It is not in my heart. I see it only as if through a misty glass. I can’t honestly grasp it with all my being. Could we, as you suggested, consider what these spaces are made of, how they come into being?
Krishnamurti: Let’s be quite sure that we both understand the same thing when we use the word space. There is the physical space between people and things, and there is the psychological space between people and things. Then there is also the space between the idea and the actual. So all this, the physical and psychological, is space, more or less limited and defined. We are not now talking of the physical space. We are talking of the psychological space between people and the psychological space in the human being himself, in his thoughts and activities. How does this space come about? Is it fictitious, illusory, or is it real? Feel it, be aware of it, make sure you haven’t just got a mental image of it, bear in mind that the description is never the thing. Be quite sure that you know
what we are talking about. Be quite aware that this limited space, this division, exists in you: don’t move from there if you don’t understand. Now how does this space come about?
Questioner: We see the physical space between things….
Krishnamurti: Don’t explain anything; just feel your way into it. We are asking how this space has come into being. Don’t give an explanation or a cause, but remain with this space and feel it. Then the cause and the description will have very little meaning and no value. This space has come into being because of thought, which is the “me”, the word – which is the whole division. Thought itself is this distance, this division. Thought is always breaking itself up into fragments and creating division. Thought always cuts up what it observes into fragments within space – as you and me, yours and mine, me and my thoughts, and so on. This space, which thought has created between what it observes, has become real; and it is this space that divides. Then thought tries to build a bridge over this division, thus playing a trick upon itself all the time, deceiving itself and hoping for unity.
Questioner: That reminds me of the old statement about thought: it is a thief disguising himself as a policeman in order to catch the thief.
Krishnamurti: Don’t bother to quote, sir, however ancient it is. We are considering what actually is going on. In seeing the truth of the nature of thought and its activities, thought becomes quiet. Thought being quiet, not made quiet, is there space?
Questioner: It is thought itself which now rushes in to answer this question.
Krishnamurti: Exactly! Therefore we do not even ask the question. The mind now is completely harmonious, without fragmentation; the little space has ceased and there is only space. When the mind is completely quiet there is the vastness of space and silence.
Questioner: So I begin to see that my relationship to another is between thought and thought; whatever I answer is the noise of thought, and realizing it, I am silent.
Krishnamurti: This silence is the benediction.
source: Krishnamurti, The Urgency of Change, pp. 30 – 33