K: I have been going North all my life, and there is a sudden
stoppage from going North. But the brain is not going East or
South or West. Then conflict ceases – right? Because it is not
moving in any direction.
DB: So that is the key point – the direction of movement. When
the movement is fixed in direction, inwardly, it will come to
conflict. But outwardly we need a fixed direction.
K: Of course we
do. That’s understood.
DB: Yes. So if we say the brain has no fixed direction, then
what is it doing? Is it moving in all directions?
K: I am a little bit hesitant to talk about this. Could one say,
when one really comes to that state, that it is the source of all
DB: Yes, as one goes deeper and more inward.
K: This is the real inwardness; not the outward movement
becoming the inner movement, but no outer or inner movement…
DB: Yes, we can deny both the outward and the inner, so that
all movement would seem to stop.
K: Would that be the source of all energy?
DB: Yes, perhaps we could say that.
K: May I talk about myself a little bit?
K: First about meditation. All conscious meditation is no
meditation – right?
DB: What do you mean by conscious meditation?
K: Deliberate, practised meditation, which is really
premeditated meditation. Is there a meditation which is not
premeditated – which is not the ego trying to become something –
or being able to negate?
DB: Before we go ahead, could we suggest what meditation
should be. Is it an observation of the mind observing?
K: No. It has gone beyond all that. I am using the word
meditation in the sense in which there is not a particle of any sense
of trying consciously to become, to reach a level.
DB: The mind is simply with itself, silent.
K: That is what I want to get at.
DB: Not looking for anything. K: You see, I don’t meditate in
the normal sense of the word. What happens is that I wake up
DB: In that state?
K: One night in India I woke up; it was a quarter past twelve, I
looked at the watch. And – I hesitate to say this because it sounds
extravagant – the source of all energy had been reached. And that
had an extraordinary effect on the brain. And also physically. I’m
sorry to talk about myself but, you understand, literally, there was
no division at all; no sense of the world, of `me’. You follow? Only
this sense of a tremendous source of energy.
DB: So the brain was in contact with this source of energy?
K: Yes, and as I have been talking for sixty years, I would like
others to reach this – no, not reach it. You understand what I am
saying? All our problems are solved. Because it is pure energy
from the very beginning of time. Now how am I – not `I’, you
understand – how is one not to teach, not to help, or push – but how
is one to say, `This way leads to a complete sense of peace, of
love’? I am sorry to use all these words. But suppose you have
come to that point and your brain itself is throbbing with it – how
would you help another? You understand? Help – not words. How
would you help another to come to that? You understand what I am
trying to say?
K: My brain – but not mine – has evolved. Evolution implies
time, and it can only think, live in time. Now for the brain to deny
time is a tremendous activity, for any problem that arises, any
question is immediately solved.
DB: Is this situation sustained or is it only for a period?
K: It is sustained, obviously, otherwise there is no point in it. It
is not sporadic or intermittent. Now how are you to open the door,
how are you to help another to say,`Look, we have been going in
the wrong direction, there is only non-movement; and, if
movement stops, everything will be correct’?
DB: Well, it is hard to know beforehand if everything is going
to be correct.
K: Let’s go back to what we began with. That is, has
mankind taken a wrong turn, psychologically, not physically? Can that turn be completely reversed? Or stopped? My brain is so
accustomed to this evolutionary idea that I will become something,
I will gain something, that I must have more knowledge and so on;
can that brain suddenly realize that there is no such thing as time?
You understand what I am trying to say?
K: I was listening the other day to a discussion on television
about Darwin, his knowledge and what he achieved – his whole
theory of evolution. It seems to me that this is totally untrue
DB: It seems that he has given evidence that all species have
changed in time. Why is that untrue?
K: Of course. It is obvious.
DB: It is true in one respect, although I think it would be untrue
to say the mind evolved in time.
K: Of course.
DB: But physically it seems clear there has been a process of
evolution, and that this has increased the capacity of the brain to do
certain things. For example, we couldn’t be discussing this if the
brain had not grown larger.
K: Of course.
DB: But I think you are implying that the mind is not
originating in the brain. Is that so? The brain is perhaps an
instrument of the mind?
K: And the mind is not time. Just see what that means.
DB: The mind does not evolve with the brain.
K: The mind not being of time, and the brain being of time – is
that the origin of conflict?
DB: Well, we have to see why that produces conflict. It is not
clear to say that the brain is of time, but rather that it has developed
in such a way that time is in it.
K: Yes, that is what I meant.
DB: But not necessarily so.
K: It has evolved.
DB: It has evolved, so it has time within it.
K: Yes, it has evolved, time is part of it.
DB: It has become part of its very structure.
DB: However, the mind operates without time, although the
brain is not able to do so.
K: That means that God is in man, and God can only operate if
the brain is quiet, if the brain is not caught in time.
DB: Well, I wasn’t meaning that. I see that the brain, having a
structure of time, is not able to respond properly to mind. That’s
really what seems to be involved here.
K: Can the brain itself see that it is caught in time, and that as
long as it is moving in that direction, conflict is eternal, endless?
You follow what I am saying?
DB: Yes. Does the brain see it?
K: Has the brain the capacity to see in what it is doing now –
being caught in time – that in that process there is no end to
conflict? That means, is there a part of the brain which is not of
DB: Not caught or functioning in time?
K: Can one say that?
DB: I don’t know.
K: That would mean – we come back to the same thing in
different words – that the brain is not being completely conditioned
by time, so there is a part of the brain that is free of time.
DB: Not a part, but rather that the brain is mainly dominated by
time, although that doesn’t necessarily mean it couldn’t shift.
K: Yes. That is, can the brain, dominated by time, not be
subservient to it?
DB: That’s right. In that moment it comes out of
time. I think I can see this – it is dominated only when you give it
time. Thought which takes time is dominated, but anything fast
enough is not dominated.
K: Yes, that’s right. Can the brain – which has been used to time
– can it see in that process that there is no end to conflict? See, in
the sense of realizing this? Will it realize it under pressure?
Certainly not. Will it realize it under coercion, reward or
punishment? It will not. It will either resist or escape.
So what is the factor that will make the brain see that the way it
has been functioning is not correct? (Let’s use that word for the
moment.) And what will make it suddenly realize that it is totally
mischievous? What will make it? Certainly not drugs or some kind
DB: None of these outward things.
K: Then what will make the brain realize this?
DB: What do you mean by realize?
K: Realize that the path along which the brain has been going
will always be the path of conflict.
DB: I think this raises the question that the brain resists such a
K: Of course, of course. Because it has been used to the old
path, for centuries! How will you make the brain realize this fact?
If you could make it realize that, conflict is finished.
You see, people have tried fasting, austerity, poverty, chastity in
the real sense, purity, having a mind that is absolutely correct; they
have tried going away by themselves; they have tried practically
everything that man has invented, but none of these ways has
DB: Well, what do you say? It is clear that people pursuing
these outward goals are still becoming.
K: Yes, but they never realize that these are outward goals. It
means denying all that completely.
DB: You see, to go further, I think that one has to deny the very
notion of time in the sense of looking forward to the future, and
deny all the past.
K: That’s just it.
DB: That is, the whole of time.
K: Time is the enemy. Meet it, and go beyond it.
end of excerpt Chapter 1, Krishnamurti, David Bohm, The Ending Of Time